• Gaming (Windows) PC: build or buy?

    From Digital Man@VERT to All on Thu Jul 15 21:12:02 2021
    My daughter's gaming PC needs an upgrade as it overheats and hangs sometimes when playing graphic intensive games, like https://store.steampowered.com/app/1377590/The_Island/

    She currently has a 2015-era quadcore AMD APU (I think it's 3+ GHz) with 16GB of RAM and a Gigabyte Geforce GTX 1050 Ti OC Low Profile 4GB GDDR5 128 Bit PCI-E Graphic Card. I don't think the graphics card is an issue, but rather the CPU/chipset and possibly cooling. Being a proprietary (HP) slim-line case and motherboard, GPU upgrade options were limited, but I think that 1050 Ti is actually handling the job pretty well.

    Anyway, for her birthday, I want to replace the system with something (even) better suited to gaming, like this:
    https://www.costco.com/dell-xps-8940-tower---11th-gen-intel-core-i7-11700---geforce-rtx-3060ti.product.100773674.html

    I could just build a new system from puchased parts and re-use her existing GPU (the 1050 Ti), but being a low profile card, that could be tricky in a full-height case and being a gift, I don't want it to be something I may have to troubleshoot (e.g. buying the wrong RAM for the CPU/motherboard... again?).

    The Costo Dell deal looks pretty good, $1600 for:
    - Core i7-11700 (8-core) CPU
    - 32GB DDR4 RAM
    - NVIDIA GeForce RTS 3060Ti GPU w/8GB RAM
    - 512GB PCIe M.2 SSD
    - 1TB 7200RPM HD
    - DVD/CD reader/writer
    - Windows 10

    Stuff it comes with but likely wouldn't use:
    - keyboard and mouse
    - Wifi and Bluetooth adapters

    I didn't want to spend that much, but seems like it'd last her several years without any need to upgrade (much). Thoughts?
    --
    digital man

    Sling Blade quote #10:
    Morris: I stand on the hill, not for thrill, but for the breath of a fresh kill Norco, CA WX: 73.3°F, 58.0% humidity, 4 mph E wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Brian Rogers@VERT/CARNAGE to Digital Man on Fri Jul 16 08:24:00 2021
    Hello Digital Man;

    Digital Man wrote to All <=-

    Anyway, for her birthday, I want to replace the system with something (even) better suited to gaming, like this: https://www.costco.com/dell-xps-8940-tower---11th-gen-intel-core-i7-1170 0---geforce-rtx-3060ti.product.100773674.html

    My rule of thumb when helping my clients upgrade is to take the specs of
    what it is you're looking to run and go no less than one step above that
    so you get a couple extra years from your machine/investment.

    Dells aren't too bad a machine and the xps series usually are decent for gaming.

    ... XMS: Xtraordinarily Meaningless Specification
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ SBBS - Carnage! Get your bytes revived here.
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Digital Man on Fri Jul 16 10:21:22 2021
    Re: Gaming (Windows) PC: build or buy?
    By: Digital Man to All on Thu Jul 15 2021 09:12 pm

    Anyway, for her birthday, I want to replace the system with something (even) better suited to gaming, like this: https://www.costco.com/dell-xps-8940-tower---11th-gen-intel-core-i7-11700- --geforce-rtx-3060ti.product.100773674.html

    I could just build a new system from puchased parts and re-use her existing GPU (the 1050 Ti), but being a low profile card, that could be tricky in a full-height case and being a gift, I don't want it to be something I may have to troubleshoot (e.g. buying the wrong RAM for the CPU/motherboard... again?).

    The Costo Dell deal looks pretty good, $1600 for:
    - Core i7-11700 (8-core) CPU
    - 32GB DDR4 RAM
    - NVIDIA GeForce RTS 3060Ti GPU w/8GB RAM
    - 512GB PCIe M.2 SSD
    - 1TB 7200RPM HD
    - DVD/CD reader/writer
    - Windows 10

    Stuff it comes with but likely wouldn't use:
    - keyboard and mouse
    - Wifi and Bluetooth adapters

    I didn't want to spend that much, but seems like it'd last her several years without any need to upgrade (much). Thoughts?

    That PC seems fairly decent, and you're probably right that it would probably last severla years without having to upgrade. And as far as the graphics card, are you sure it's not RTX? I don't think Nvidia has an "RTS" line. The RTX 3000 series are currently their latest, and seem to be fairly hard to come by too (I've been waiting for a decently priced 3080 TI; they tend to be out of stock in most places, or sold by scalpers asking ridiculous prices).

    If I were to build/buy a PC now, I might choose an AMD processor, as they seem to have some really good processors right now and lower prices for comparable (or perhaps even slightly better) performance & specs than the comparable Intel processors.

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Digital Man@VERT to Arelor on Fri Jul 16 14:02:28 2021
    Re: Gaming (Windows) PC: build or buy?
    By: Arelor to Digital Man on Fri Jul 16 2021 03:17 am

    I didn't want to spend that much, but seems like it'd last her several years without any need to upgrade (much). Thoughts?

    If you think 1600 USD is "that much" you have not seen what people is spending in not-so-good gaming equipment.

    Oh, I have, but I try to make the dollars last. In the past, if it's not a laptop or all-in-one computer, I usually would build it out myself. Or reuse someone else's perfectly useful prefabbed e-waste.

    For a computer intended for gaming, upgradability is the key...you need a moderboard into which you can plug "moar stuff" and "newer stuff". Otherwise you won't be able to keep playing bleeding edge games with your setup in a matter of a couple of years, at least with decent game settings.

    A rule of thumb for gaming gear is to see which game consoles game publishers are targetting and try to have at least a bit better specs than those consoles. The reason is that many game companies use mainstream consoles as a spec reference. If the last Playstation is Playstation 20 then you can bet triple AAA developers are assuming their specs are the base for the current generation of games.

    The second approach is to scan the AAA game market in order to see which requerinments modern games are demanding. If you can reliably match the recommended requerinments for current games you can be sure that you will be able to play any game with your rig up until the moment the current generation of games ends.

    Current generation of games is coming to an end by the way: https://www.game -debate.com/news/28464/recommended-pc-system-requirements-for-w hen-xbox-series-x-and-ps5-launch

    The Costco/Dell system I referenced appears to exceed the "Next Gen Recommended System Requirements" on that web page by a pretty good margin.

    Sorry I am not giving an opinion about your suggested configuration. I am not that familiar with the current state of things. I hope my wall of text gives you something to think about.

    Yes, appreciate the feedback.
    --
    digital man

    Breaking Bad quote #23:
    Whiteboy's gonna kick your ass if you don't stop wasting his time. - Hank Norco, CA WX: 87.9°F, 36.0% humidity, 12 mph E wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Digital Man@VERT to Nightfox on Fri Jul 16 14:17:50 2021
    Re: Gaming (Windows) PC: build or buy?
    By: Nightfox to Digital Man on Fri Jul 16 2021 10:21 am

    - NVIDIA GeForce RTS 3060Ti GPU w/8GB RAM

    That PC seems fairly decent, and you're probably right that it would probably last severla years without having to upgrade. And as far as the graphics card, are you sure it's not RTX?

    Yes, that was a typo: RTX 3060Ti.

    "fairly decent"? It blows all the other computers in house away! Well, maybe not my 16-core 32GB Opteron system, but that's not a gaming system either.

    If I were to build/buy a PC now, I might choose an AMD processor, as they seem to have some really good processors right now and lower prices for comparable (or perhaps even slightly better) performance & specs than the comparable Intel processors.

    An AMD integrated graphics CPU (or "APU" they're sometimes called) or separate CPU and GPU? For example this HP system has a Ryzen APU:
    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08VRS732Z
    but I'm having trouble comparing the GPU performance of that system against, say, the NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3060Ti.
    --
    digital man

    This Is Spinal Tap quote #18:
    Sustain, listen to it. Don't hear anything. You would though were it playing. Norco, CA WX: 88.0°F, 36.0% humidity, 9 mph E wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Digital Man on Fri Jul 16 15:14:20 2021
    Re: Gaming (Windows) PC: build or buy?
    By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Fri Jul 16 2021 02:17 pm

    That PC seems fairly decent, and you're probably right that it would
    probably last severla years without having to upgrade. And as far as
    the graphics card, are you sure it's not RTX?

    Yes, that was a typo: RTX 3060Ti.

    "fairly decent"? It blows all the other computers in house away! Well, maybe not my 16-core 32GB Opteron system, but that's not a gaming system either.

    :) Well yeah, it's actually a pretty good looking system.

    If I were to build/buy a PC now, I might choose an AMD processor, as

    An AMD integrated graphics CPU (or "APU" they're sometimes called) or separate CPU and GPU? For example this HP system has a Ryzen APU: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08VRS732Z but I'm having trouble comparing the GPU performance of that system against, say, the NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3060Ti.

    I was thinking separate CPU and GPU. I was thinking an AMD processor would be a bit less expensive than an Intel processor. Even though AMD bought ATI years ago, I was reading about AMD's integrated graphics several years ago and remember reading that although it's pretty good, it's still not as good as having a separate dedicated GPU.

    The other system you posted still seems like a fairly good deal. For about $600 more than this AMD-based system, the other one has more storage and the Nvidia RTX 3060 TI card. If you were to buy an RTX 3060 TI card by itself, it looks like it would cost about $400 and up, depending on which brand & model you buy:
    https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?N=100007709%20601359415

    So I feel like $1600 for the other system is fair. I suppose it would be good to research how well the AMD Radeon graphics performs.

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Digital Man on Mon Jul 19 18:31:15 2021
    On 7/15/2021 9:12 PM, Digital Man wrote:
    The Costo Dell deal looks pretty good, $1600 for:
    - Core i7-11700 (8-core) CPU
    - 32GB DDR4 RAM
    - NVIDIA GeForce RTS 3060Ti GPU w/8GB RAM
    - 512GB PCIe M.2 SSD
    - 1TB 7200RPM HD
    - DVD/CD reader/writer
    - Windows 10

    Stuff it comes with but likely wouldn't use:
    - keyboard and mouse
    - Wifi and Bluetooth adapters

    I didn't want to spend that much, but seems like it'd last her several
    years without any need to upgrade (much). Thoughts?

    Buying is probably your best bet... the motherboard and psu are usually
    the sore spots on pre-built. Unfortunately, video cards are all but impossible to come by right now, and have been for over a year and a half.

    Probably sufficient for 5+ years, the OS drive and/or the supplemental
    drive are both a little small depending on the games she plays or will
    want to play in the future.

    System above should pair with a good 1440p monitor, most games at
    mid-high settings at 90+ fps.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Brian Rogers on Mon Jul 19 18:35:45 2021
    On 7/16/2021 5:24 AM, Brian Rogers wrote:

    Dells aren't too bad a machine and the xps series usually are
    decent for gaming.

    Dell are effectively hot garbage e-waste... half the parts in newer
    systems are completely proprietary, even the power supply and
    motherboards on many of them right now. And while some are 12V only,
    they aren't the new standard even.

    The lower-end video cards are crap, the higher end are okay. That
    doesn't go into the bloatware, and their really sleazy sales channel
    tactics right now. If you're going big box builder, HP is likely a
    better bet.

    See "secret shopper" reviews on Linus Tech Tips and Gamers Nexus
    regarding Dell products lately.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Nightfox on Mon Jul 19 18:45:41 2021
    On 7/16/2021 10:21 AM, Nightfox wrote:

    That PC seems fairly decent, and you're probably right that it would probably last severla years without having to upgrade. And as far as
    the graphics card, are you sure it's not RTX? I don't think Nvidia
    has an "RTS" line. The RTX 3000 series are currently their latest,
    and seem to be fairly hard to come by too (I've been waiting for a
    decently priced 3080 TI; they tend to be out of stock in most places,
    or sold by scalpers asking ridiculous prices).

    It's definitely RTX for 3060 Ti.

    If I were to build/buy a PC now, I might choose an AMD processor, as
    they seem to have some really good processors right now and lower
    prices for comparable (or perhaps even slightly better) performance &
    specs than the comparable Intel processors.

    The roles are pretty much reversed of where they were a couple years
    ago. While AMD is current king in terms of best of breed, there is a
    bit of a price premium for that, so unless going for 5900X or 5950X,
    then Intel is actually a better deal at the moment for most systems.

    If I were going for something with a built in GPU, it's either Intel, or
    wait a few weeks for the 5600g and 5700g to get more availability and
    for direct sales. Otherwise, it's kind of a case by case basis.

    In general AMD's 5000 series is one tier above Intel for most uses...
    ex: 5800X will go toe to toe with an 11900K intel (x800X amd vs x900k
    intel), last gen 3000 series AMD was about on par (better multicore,
    weaker single core) ... intel 11th isn't really a boost over the 10th
    gen and in some cases hotter or slower. 11400 being an exception, but
    possibly a bit under-powered longer term (3+ years).

    This will vary by use case, peer hardware (GPU), drivers, etc. The
    biggest cost in that machine is really the RTX 3060, which by itself is selling for over $700 still, where it *should* be closer to $300. The
    system itself would have been well under $1000 a year and a half ago.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Digital Man on Mon Jul 19 18:55:15 2021
    On 7/16/2021 2:17 PM, Digital Man wrote:

    An AMD integrated graphics CPU (or "APU" they're sometimes called) or separate CPU and GPU? For example this HP system has a Ryzen APU: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08VRS732Z
    but I'm having trouble comparing the GPU performance of that system
    against, say, the NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3060Ti.

    The APU in the 4700g is just below a GTX 1030 performance, so not as
    good as the older computer, the CPU is decent enough. A 5700g APU
    graphics are just above a GTX 1030 in some cases.

    Unfortunately GPU availability is pretty much limited to buy it or build
    it... the system from Amazon is way overpriced there, it should be
    $500-600 at Office Max, and you can bump the ram yourself for $150 or less.

    You might also consider Newegg's builder service, which will allow you
    to choose some of the parts... I missed the original mentioning the
    system was a Dell, I wouldn't recommend Dell currently.

    If you were to build yourself, would probably suggest building with the
    same 10700k same as the dell system or a 3700X AMD, and just bringing
    over the GTX 1050 as an interim graphics card and try the newegg shuffle
    for a better GPU near cost, ymmv though. AMD has nicer/better
    motherboard options at different price points than for intel, would go
    with a low or mid-range x570 chipset for AMD over B550. Even if you
    don't care about the wifi, having the bluetooth included will help with headphones if not now, in the future.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Digital Man@VERT to Tracker1 on Tue Jul 20 00:13:00 2021
    Re: Re: Gaming (Windows) PC: build or buy?
    By: Tracker1 to Digital Man on Mon Jul 19 2021 06:31 pm

    On 7/15/2021 9:12 PM, Digital Man wrote:
    The Costo Dell deal looks pretty good, $1600 for:
    - Core i7-11700 (8-core) CPU
    - 32GB DDR4 RAM
    - NVIDIA GeForce RTS 3060Ti GPU w/8GB RAM
    - 512GB PCIe M.2 SSD
    - 1TB 7200RPM HD
    - DVD/CD reader/writer
    - Windows 10

    Stuff it comes with but likely wouldn't use:
    - keyboard and mouse
    - Wifi and Bluetooth adapters

    I didn't want to spend that much, but seems like it'd last her several years without any need to upgrade (much). Thoughts?

    Buying is probably your best bet... the motherboard and psu are usually
    the sore spots on pre-built. Unfortunately, video cards are all but impossible to come by right now, and have been for over a year and a half.

    Probably sufficient for 5+ years, the OS drive and/or the supplemental
    drive are both a little small depending on the games she plays or will
    want to play in the future.

    System above should pair with a good 1440p monitor, most games at
    mid-high settings at 90+ fps.

    I ended up getting the Dell from Costco (as shown above). I've had very good experience with the (doubled) computer warranties from Costco and this one seems to be a pretty good deal.

    I'll be moving the 1050 Ti to another system for one of my other daughters. She's due for an upgrade too even if she's not as much of a gamer.
    --
    digital man

    Breaking Bad quote #16:
    Thinking Operation Breath Mint evertime you and me are on a stakeout together. Norco, CA WX: 72.8°F, 55.0% humidity, 0 mph SE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Tracker1 on Tue Jul 20 03:38:20 2021
    Re: Re: Gaming (Windows) PC: buil
    By: Tracker1 to Brian Rogers on Mon Jul 19 2021 06:35 pm

    Dell are effectively hot garbage e-waste... half the parts in newer
    systems are completely proprietary, even the power supply and
    motherboards on many of them right now. And while some are 12V only,
    they aren't the new standard even.


    Well, I think HP is also loading some propietary components into their prebuilts. Heck, some HP servers are designed to accept only their (lame) fans, and if you want to incorporate a good fan, you have to disassemble the thing and rewire it.

    I use a lot of second hand Dells. They made so many early Optiplex units that the second hand market here is flooded by them. Sure, an official replacement part for some component may be expŐensive, but more often than not you can go into an IT shop and ask if they have some spare part.

    Last time I did that they had 4 disassembled Optiplexes they were using for spare parts. I got a PSU replacement for 10 bucks.

    I know this won't apply to modern gaming equipment, but I thought it was worth sharing.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Tracker1 on Tue Jul 20 07:20:00 2021
    Tracker1 wrote to Brian Rogers <=-

    Dell are effectively hot garbage e-waste... half the parts in newer systems are completely proprietary, even the power supply and
    motherboards on many of them right now. And while some are 12V only,
    they aren't the new standard even.

    It's a shame. I loved the old Precision workstations - built like tanks, I
    had one running for 12 years here.

    The Optiplex 9XXX series towers were nice low-end "servers", with onboard
    RAID and the ability to have 32 GB of RAM in 2010. I'd max them out on RAM, put 2 SATA drives in them, and use them as departmental servers or high-end desktops.

    They did have a couple of black marks at the same time - the GX270 desktops that popped the caps nearest the power supply vent, and the D630 laptops
    that fried their video chipsets. Dell's solution for the former was to send out replacement motherboards with the same problem and a BIOS update for the latter that just ran the fan 100% of the time.



    ... Powered By Celeron (Tualatin). Engineered for the future.
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.
  • From Brian Rogers@VERT/CARNAGE to Arelor on Tue Jul 20 11:42:00 2021
    Arelor wrote to Tracker1 <=-

    Well, I think HP is also loading some propietary components into their prebuilts. Heck, some HP servers are designed to accept only their
    (lame) fans, and if you want to incorporate a good fan, you have to disassemble the thing and rewire it.

    One thing HP has a bad reputation on is overloading heatsink glue on the CPUs when installing fans - moreso present on their laptops. Too much causes a reverse affect of overheating instead of helping keep the CPU cool.

    ... I got stuck for ages behind an ice-cream truck, bloody sundae drivers!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ SBBS - Carnage! Get your bytes revived here.
  • From Brian Rogers@VERT/CARNAGE to Tracker1 on Tue Jul 20 12:00:00 2021
    Hello Tracker1;

    Tracker1 wrote to Brian Rogers <=-

    Dell are effectively hot garbage e-waste... half the parts in newer systems are completely proprietary, even the power supply and
    motherboards on many of them right now. And while some are 12V only,
    they aren't the new standard even.

    Most of your hardware sellers are going this route in an attempt to "lock you in" to their product.

    The lower-end video cards are crap, the higher end are okay. That
    doesn't go into the bloatware, and their really sleazy sales channel tactics right now. If you're going big box builder, HP is likely a
    better bet.

    HP also is with it's issues, propriety hardware as well as putting excessive amounts of heatsink glue on C/GPUs, thus causing a reverse affect of them overheating. I can't count how many times I've had to scrape off the excess paste to fix overheating issues with HP.


    ... Old photographers never die, they just stop developing.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ SBBS - Carnage! Get your bytes revived here.
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Tracker1 on Tue Jul 20 19:49:46 2021
    Re: Re: Gaming (Windows) PC: build or buy?
    By: Tracker1 to Nightfox on Mon Jul 19 2021 06:45 pm

    The roles are pretty much reversed of where they were a couple years
    ago. While AMD is current king in terms of best of breed, there is a
    bit of a price premium for that, so unless going for 5900X or 5950X,
    then Intel is actually a better deal at the moment for most systems.

    Oh? I thought AMD's processors were still cheaper. At least a couple years ago, I remember hearing when AMD's processors were rating ahead of Intel's. For the price of an Intel i9-9900K, there was an AMD processor that was similarly priced that had more cores, and AMD's processors were getting slightly better ratings than Intel across the board, except for a couple cases.

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Nightfox on Fri Sep 3 18:14:03 2021
    On 7/20/2021 7:49 PM, Nightfox wrote:
    The roles are pretty much reversed of where they were a couple years
    ago. While AMD is current king in terms of best of breed, there is a
    bit of a price premium for that, so unless going for 5900X or 5950X,
    then Intel is actually a better deal at the moment for most systems.

    Oh? I thought AMD's processors were still cheaper. At least a couple
    years ago, I remember hearing when AMD's processors were rating ahead
    of Intel's. For the price of an Intel i9-9900K, there was an AMD
    processor that was similarly priced that had more cores, and AMD's processors were getting slightly better ratings than Intel across the
    board, except for a couple cases.

    With the AMD Ryzen 5000 series (current), they bumped the pricing, at
    the top end they're faster than Intel's fastest. Meanwhile Intel prices dropped a bit, Intel still tends to take more power for a given
    performance class. Again, role reversal.

    In the enthusiast space, AMD is much more popular, and also had been
    selling out more, given Intel more breathing room. It's a bit of a
    mixed bag outside the top end.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com